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Don’t let Lippi Read This

May 20th, 2006 | By: Euler Costa | 21 Comments »

Brazilian Shield Today I will answer to the best of my abilities what is going on with the Brazilian defense. This post is dedicated to Rescorpione, an Italian football fan that have seen more football than most of us. He saw Pele playing on TV in the 1970 World Cup and told me he has nice memories about that. I can only imagine what great stories he must have to tell us, and I believe he has a keen eye when analyzing talents and styles. Everybody knows that he is not alone when it comes to our defense. Even Juninho Pernambucano is pointing out that our defense is weak. Well, I have my doubts about that.

Here are the Rescorpione’s questions:

Brazilian Triangle 1. Are Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior “the triangle of bermudas”?
That is very funny and it really is based in reality. This expression was printed in a newspaper and used for some time referring to our defense after some hard times we had, but I can’t really point out the exact people involved in it or the exact time. I, for one, am glad to see Roque Junior out of our list. He surely was the weak link in our defense.

2. Which defensive players would you have there instead of (in my opinion) the too many aging defenders? Do you miss anyone (Belletti!)?
When we talk about defense we will see Lucio and Juan in the back and Roberto Carlos and Cafu as wingers. The age factor seems to be more important to the rest of the world than to the Brazilian people, but still there are some among us that would use younger Cicinho and Ze Roberto. I believe the wingers must be experienced, to support the defense and midfield more than to attack. If I miss Belletti? Sure, after seeing the offensive transformation he promoted in the Barça side against Arsenal. But who would I remove? I don’t know. After all the testing I would stick to what we have now.

Alex in the Triangle 3. Whatever happened to Alex the center for Santos 3 years ago?
Wow, man! Where did you dig this name from? As far as I remember he was not even close to get a spot in our national team this year. Anyway, he is playing for PSV Eindhoven. It seems that he is having a great career there, having his team some great titles like the Dutch League twice (05 and 06) and Dutch Cup last year. He still young (24) and may have some place in future competitions, who knows.

4. I feel that Rogerio Ceni would be a much more reliable starter. I have seen Dida and Cesar do some scary things.
Every player has some down moments in his career and I believe that it was the case for Dida and Julio Cesar. After saying that, I would start the games with Rogerio Ceni. Dida is the experienced one, ready to play if needed. In the last games of the Italian season he was rocking again. Julio Cesar is the young one, the guy we want to see in 2010. He was the starter also for AC Milan in the last games, defending like a wall and deserving the trust of his coach. This year I feel that Rogerio Ceni would be fantastic to motivate the defenders, being the monster he is, not only with his hands but with rare ability with his feet too. Rogerio would be my number one choice this year.

Now I want to add some interesting information about our defense that may shed some light in the reputation we have of having a weak defense. The short version: today that’s a myth.

The explanatory version: I was amazed to learn some numbers about conceding goals while going through other team’s stats from past games and competitions. The most amazing number I came across is the jaw-dropping record set by France in 1998. They only conceded 2 goals (never counting penalty shootouts)!!! In that same competition Brazil conceded 10. Both teams were in the final. Makes us think right?

But let us dig some more recent numbers, shall we? If you take a look in the 2002 World Cup numbers you’ll notice that our team got to the final game after conceding only 4 goals, the same as the stiff German side. Italy conceded 5 goals with two games less than our side. Brazil’s good defense did not get in the way of our attack force. We scored 18 goals total against 14 of Germany that scored 8 against Saudi Arabia alone.

What about the South American qualifying competition? We conceded as many as Argentina. If our neighbors like to be pessimists about our defense, what will they say about that? Colombia conceded 1 less than Brazil while Uruguay conceded 11 (yes eleven) more than us.

It’s too bad that great teams are avoiding friendly games against us, but in the absence of other stats, I did the math in the 10 last games of some traditional teams to see what they have been doing:
Brazil – 20 gf / 8 ga
Italy – 20 gf / 9 ga
Germany – 19 gf / 19 ga
Argentina – 15 gf / 16 ga

Lucio wears Bermuda If people are expecting a soft defense as a great weakness of Brazil this year, they may be surprised. Let’s not forget that Lucio has a great collections of titles (FIFA World Cup 2002; German League Cup 2004; German League 2005, 2006; German Cup 2005, 2006 and Confederations Cup: 2005). Roque Junior is not in the team!!! (Fireworks!)

Well, this post has gone a long way, but our defensive secret weapon really is the younger players. Cafu and Roberto Carlos can be old but they are, not only fit to play, but absolutely talented and experienced and I believe they will start all games if no injury gets in their way. My plan (and I hope Parreira’s too) is to replace them in the second half of the games, very rested and fresh. Cicinho is amazing, covering almost every corner of the pitch, passing, shooting, defending and running like crazy. The other coaches would never know what did hit them. Ze Roberto could get in a little later, just to add some ‘lung force’ to our game.

Barça Hero If you read what other Brazilians are saying, some are asking for Cicinho and Ze Roberto to replace Cafu and Roberto Carlos, but very few are thinking beyond that. Our weapons are there. It’s been a long time since so many people feel so comfortable with the defense here in Brazil. It’s kind of sad to see Belletti out of the competition, but there is already many talents like him in the Seleção today.

Many teams can win this year. Many rely on the fact that our defense is too weak. I think we can defend as well as any other team today. Now, Rescorpione, please don’t tell Marcello Lippi about our secret, ok?

Tags: Alex, Bermuda Triangle, Brazil, Cafu, Carlos Alberto Parreira, Cicinho, Dida, Italy, Julio Cesar, Marcello Lippi, Roberto Carlos, Rogerio Ceni, Roque Junior, Zé Roberto

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Comments

By Vin | May 20th, 2006 at 5:20 pm

Nice Euler. I like the use of the Roman shield. For the Senate and the People of Rome! (SPQR)

Posted from United States

By dino | May 20th, 2006 at 9:22 pm

Good report,amigo. Resco may have seen many games{so he says} but does not understand the game. Brasil has a better defense of late and scores more than it allows. Viva Brasil. Resco,be objective,please.And realistic,nor pessimistic. The # do not lie. And Viva Brasil.

Posted from Canada

By Zantheman | May 21st, 2006 at 10:04 am

Nice writeup Euler. Brazil’s defense (and goaltending) has gotten better over the year’s because many of these defenders are playing on strong European sides (playing in leagues with stingy defenses) and are learning how to hone their defensive abilities while still showing some Brazilian flair.

I think Brazil have great defenders on the flanks( that can help out with the offense- and they have a lot of depth too) however their central defenders are good but not great. When your own players have doubts about your defense I think you should worry ( even though your stats don’t agree with him).

“Brazil is a great team, with great individual talents, but it needs to find balance to win the Cup. We are not too far from that. We have great fowards and excellent midfielders, but sometimes we expose the defense too much”. Juninho pernanbucano

I totally agree with his description of the team . Especially the midfield and forwards ( even though Adriano is not in tip top form) . I guess when you play OFFENSIVE SOCCER with flair as the Brazilians do (love to watch! ) you expose yourself to the counterattack and if their opponents have any sort of offense ( ex: Greece vs. Portugal -euro cup, France vs.Brazil-98) they better hope their central Defense holds up. It is extremely diificult to beat Brazil but I think teams like Croatia and Australia that play a very cohesive TEAM game could give them trouble. I’m picking Brazil to come out of their group, but 2nd to Croatia (this team may surprise and go a long way). Overall , I love watching the Brazilians play but the JOGO BONITO won’t get them the cup this time. They’re playong in Europe and since 1930 they have won the cup only ONCE in 8 TRIES on European soil! Plus since the last winner came from S.America this year’s should come from Europe (Trend: since ‘66 winners have alternated between Eur. and S.America). Potential winners, Spain (overdue), Italy (finally have some offense -Toni 30 goals and Croatia. As for, S.America ( I think your dreaded rivals Argentina may want to make ammends for a horrible showing last time-they could go far).

Posted from Canada

By rescorpione17 | May 21st, 2006 at 10:41 am

Dino how would you come with something “i don’t understand the game?” i don’t think you know what i wrote..i think euler and i have many understandings ..he is replying to some questions i had being raised not by me but brasilian press itself …there are some concerns about the state of brasil defence this year and that is all about ..the news that roque junior will not start are very good news in that direction….and know how good is Cicinho…now since i like to figure out what brasilian really think (and i am not going to talk to Lippi i swear!)..do you think that Emerson is really a crucial element to the final result ?i know he is not very much appreciated because his game looks a bit too primitive in a land of Jogo Bonito..i still think he is very important like Dunga once was..

Posted from United States

By Dublin71 | May 21st, 2006 at 10:52 am

..guys i am having really fun in reading all the posts in the World Cup the general level of contribution is above the average ..of course there are the likes of dine who just say Viva Brasil (legitimate of course )but don’t bring much understanding … then i read things from some guys like Euler ,Josh,Rescorpione ,Jay that are really interesting stimulating make me go ahead do some research …i am really looking forward to read all the posts and possibly write something interesting one day myself thanks to all of you……i did not really know enough about brasilian defence vs.offence but i am actually learning from this blog a lot so i will know who to look for when watching games ..thanks again Euler and Resco!!great job!

Posted from United States

By Crazy Croat | May 21st, 2006 at 12:27 pm

Ivan Klasnic will take your the Brazillian defense apart piece by piece and score at least 2 goals in the opener. Seeing the holders go down in their firsat match and struggle to get out of the group stage. You heard it here first and it will happen!

Posted from Canada

By Euler | May 21st, 2006 at 1:22 pm

Hi Zantheman, thanks for the comment. I still think that this Brazilian defence is one of the strongest ever. About playing in Europe, this year we’ll have only 2 players from out of Europe. Everyone else (21) playes in European teams. This can be a strong factor in our favor.

Hey Recorpione, Roque Junior not only will not start, but he is not among the 23 players selected to go to Germany this year. No chance of him playing!

Emerson is a midfielder. He can be not as skillfull as the others, but sometimes we just need strenght. Like Adriano in the attack, he is strong but not so skillfull as most Brazilian forwards. As you said, sometimes primitive is good (Dunga).

Hey Dublin! Thanks! Keep yourself confortable reading all you can and commenting as much as you want. If you want to ask anything, feel free too, as Scorpione did, ok?

By Jigga | May 21st, 2006 at 10:21 pm

Interesting stuff! Am I missing something here? It’s all about Brazil (albeit weakness) vs the Rest. Why is it that other teams will have to rely on Brazil making mistakes at the back in order mount a reputable challenge and have a chance? That tells me that this team is invinsible. They will go all the way to win this thing because they won’t make any mistakes. Waiting on counter-attacking your opponent isn’t a very good strategic at the level of football of the magnitude of world cup. One thing is for sure: The Brazil defence lineup will be penetrated and oppoenents will score goals no doubt, but they will score more goals than their opponents. Cafu is still very good despite his age and so is Roberto Carlos. Carlos’ lung capacity is still the biggest out there and the guy is still abale to run 90 mins of the 7 games required to win the world cup. Carlos is physical strong and he never showed any signs of fatique this season at his Real Madrid team, so you better watch what you are talking about. Euler made ana interesting point that it’s the rest of the world more worried about the aging duo of Carlos and Cafu and the entire Brazil defence but not the Brazilians themselves - true! Going by the 2002 cup, the Brazil defence did quite very well. Cicinho cana always come in for Cafu whenever the veteran is tired and Cici equally has massive lung capacity. By the way what happened to that left full back who replaced Roberto Carlos at the 2002 cup againt Costa Rica and even scored an incredible goal (whatever his name was)? I thought that guy posed a threat to Carlos’ dominance in that position!
peace!

Posted from Australia

By Euler | May 22nd, 2006 at 4:55 am

Hey Jigga! Nice comment! thanks!

The guy that replaced Roberto Carlos against Costa Rica is called Jenilson Angelo De Souza, but he is known as Junior only. He was playing in Parma (Italy) in 2002 and now he is playing for São Paulo (Brazil).

Now tell me: HOW do you dig stuff like that? I don’t remember this kind of thing. I went after the information for you and realized that I didn’t remember this guy at all. Interesting thing! I’ll ask some friends to see if they can remember this guy.

Links with info:

The game:
http://2002.fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/02/en/t/m/41/

The man:
http://www.sambafoot.com/en/players/49_Junior.html

By Sourav | May 22nd, 2006 at 1:29 pm

I know that the first 11 has pretty much been decided, but here are my observations.
I believe Dida will start but may be Ceni is better, reading recent reports, even from Argentine newsmedia covering the Libertadores games. Hopefully, the coach will see who is more confident in practice.
Again, it is almost for sure that Cafu and Carlos starts. May be Cicinho comes in the 2nd half.
The famous four will also start. Kaka will likely be changed for Juninho sometimes in the 2nd half. However, here I personally think that Edmilson should play in front of the center backs as volante, along with Emerson/Gilberto Silva/Ze Roberto (any 2) for marking and holding roles. This will no doubt give more solidity to the defence although it sacrifices some attack.
Then either Adriano or Ronaldo start and the other can relieve in 2nd half. Also, for attack, either of Edmilson/Gilberto/Emerson/ZeRoberto can be pulled in favor of Adriano and Ronaldo together.
I think other teams will try to mark out Ronaldinho and Kaka and pack the center, trying to cut out the stricker(s) and suck in Cafu and Carlos. They will try to exploit the space behind the wingbacks, so the midfielders and Edmilson (if he plays) will have to cover that space. So if Brazil does not break down the middle with too many men upfield and Lucio-Juan can head away the crosses (which they do reasonably well), the defence should be good enough. They are good in laying offside traps and the team controls the ball 70% of the game. So defence should hold reasonably.
I think the key will be the defensive mid-field (remember that they will also get some cards).
I really hope that Ronaldo and Adriano is in top form to bury the opponents.
I know Brasilians do not like defensive mentality as they want pure, flowing attack. But in modern football, often, defense wins over attack. You can score one miracle goal and then crowd out the other team by putting 10/11 men behind the ball. The ground is only so big. Sentimentally I would of course like the famous four together as well as for Argentina to play Riquelme, Tevez, Messi and Crespo together, but practically teams may go for more organised defence. Brasil wins on paper but as they say the game is ‘on grass’ and not on paper. Hoping for a great world cup and Brasil to get the Hexa.

Posted from United States

By Euler | May 22nd, 2006 at 2:01 pm

Hi Sourav. My point is exactly the opposite you said in the last paragraph: “in modern football, often, defense wins over attack”.

If you read the numbers I wrote, you’ll see that in 1998 Brazil conceded a lot of goals but even so we managed to be at the final. Maybe we could have won if Ronaldo didn’t fall sick.

In 2002 Brazil won the Cup scoring like crazy, dominating any defensive force they met. Even Germany.

In the Confedeations Cup Brazil scored like crazy and attack again dominated defence. I believe defence is absolutely important, but if the attack can compensate poor defense the football fans get a good show. Football wins. Like Barcelona over Arsenal.

Now here is a question for you: if Brazil have such a poor defence, why are we the only team with 5 titles? If defense is dominating and Brazil suck at it, why are we so successful?

By Introubleman | May 22nd, 2006 at 3:04 pm

I totally agree with you Euler! As you said, we’ve already proved that beautiful football destroys any defense, but Parreira gotta be careful about Brazil’s defense, cause Cafu and R3 are too old and Emerson is only one player so he can’t make miracles; in 94 we had good defenders in good days, and in 2002 we had 5 men defending our back… I hope Pé-de-uva (Parreira) remembers how to organize a defense.

Posted from Brazil

By Danny | May 22nd, 2006 at 6:36 pm

Don’t be troubled introubleman, Cafu has been playing very well this season and also we have cicino if he gets tired so is carlos.Ronaldo can still score goals and Ronaldinho is in top form as compared to 2002 so except more attack forcing the opponent to defend

Posted from United Kingdom

By sourav | May 22nd, 2006 at 8:01 pm

Hi Euler: I like your point but statistics can be misleading. Again, I do not mean that just defence will win it. However, I still remeber the team with Zico, Socrates (’82?) loosing and still dread Italy from when they had one lethal or lucky scorer like Rossi or Schillaci and had a stiffling defence and impenetrable Zoff. Also Barca-Arsenal went exactly as Arsenal planned when they went into the defensive: only Henry could not score from Gleb’s pass with the golden chance to finish off the game!! (I think 2-0 would have been too much, even for Barca).
I think that Brazil just do not know to play in a ultra-defensive way. They are instictively attack minded. Thus, may be they have to think more about defence. Other teams often have to think opposite.
I know that I may be totally wrong as Argentina, for example, lost in the last Cup as they were ultra defensive. Also England try the same thing: as soon as they score they go defense and loose. Most teams hope that they will draw the other team up and score to kill the game. Unfortunately, this tactic often works. I, like you, would want open, good football and for Brazil to win, so may be I am being too nervous. I did not mean that Brazil defence is horribly weak, but it is weaker than their offensive prowess. It is much better than ‘82. So the million dollar question is: do you fortify your weakness or you stress your strength to win the day. I really appreciate your comments and although all the strategies and tactics will come from Perriera, I thought I will share my 2 cents just for fun.

Posted from United States

By marco | May 22nd, 2006 at 8:10 pm

I no every one will say ohh sop comparing to Italy but i have to .. if you look at brazil and Italy, lets say that there attack is equally as good (that being their forwards and midfield) so the only difference between who scores them most is the defence and id have to say that Italy’s is superior … when comparing brazil with France though, both have strong attack yet both lack in defence, so that would be an interesting match

Posted from Australia

By Euler | May 22nd, 2006 at 10:00 pm

I must confess… I’m tired. All I’m saying (and you guys don’t seem to be reading) is that we are 5 times champions with a crappy defense. Now that we have a good defense like anybody else our chances would improve.

Is that so hard to read? Most people say that attack isn’t all. I already have agreed to that. Recent numbers show our attack as good as always (5 titles) but it also shows an improvement to our defense. That’s all I’m saying. Our chances are fine if you read the recent numbers.

We lost 1982. I never asked half of the title because of that ref error. But we won 5 times with a weaker defense than this year’s. That’s all. Please read people! Read!

By rescorpione17 | May 23rd, 2006 at 7:32 am

..i feel for you Euler i have ben reading this blog which somehow started with some curiousities i had ,,and we seem not to move on .
Your explanations and impressive documentation have been quite enough for me..(sorry i missed the fact that Roque is not at the cup,my printout for Basil was a prediction i realized..good for you guys because roque is lethal..)…i’ll keep on reading it but sometimes we get lost in some tedious querelles ..like
” i am better than you ,you suck.”..at this point i am already looking forward to watch some games ’cause talk is enough ……bring them on bring them on !…PS: what about starting a blog about the best goals ever scored in the WC ? i don’t know how to start one but i think that could be fun..

Posted from United States

By Euler | May 23rd, 2006 at 7:59 am

Thanks Rescorpione. I wrote about Weggis, the home for the Seleção in Switzerland, a soft subject, right?

There is already people going back on that “I’m better you suck” thing.

You gave a good suggestion. I’ll think of a top 5 or 10 more memorable goals for Brazil. Thanks again!

By Josh | May 23rd, 2006 at 1:40 pm

Verry funny post, w shield and bermuda triangle. Good stuff.

I have a serious question, too. What ever happened to Diego (no, not THAT diego…) the one who played for Brasil in the summer tournaments of 04, then went on to Porto. Seemed like a decent player, but never saw him feature for Brasil after that.

Also:
Brazil – 20 gf / 8 ga
Italy – 20 gf / 9 ga

Based on the above, you have to admit that Italy are now going forward and Brasil are shoring up the defense…. Further, it doesn’t look like either side will blow the other away. That is on paper, anyway….
’cause if we cross paths in the round of 16 –> it will be feijao for the yellow shirts, as I’m pretty sure they don’t serve that in Germany!!
Seriously, good luck to your team.

Posted from United States

By Euler | May 23rd, 2006 at 3:27 pm

Hey Sourav! It’s interesting how you mention 82 as a big example of how defense wins, but you also end up using a lot of other good examples of how attack can be deadly, like “England try the same thing: as soon as they score they go defense and loose.”

About “do you fortify your weakness or you stress your strength to win the day”, I think our team is all about that this year. Our defense is stronger than ever, and our attack is incredible. This year I would not touch the team. I will lay back and watch Parreira working.

Thanks for your comments Sourav!

By Matt | June 15th, 2006 at 3:32 pm

Hi Guys,

Both are important, the defence and attack. It depends on the tactics.
There is no correct answer which one is more important. But the winner is that one who scored more goals than he received….
Anyway a question: Why did not play Romario in the national team in France `98 actually? This could have been decisive in the final game against the hosts.
With best wishes in the next matches for Brasil

Matt

Posted from Slovakia